A Tachiai Conversation

Tachiai Interviews Murray Johnson, Part 1: “If You Get That Little Taste of Sumo, You Get Hooked”

Josh K Interview , ,
Murray Johnson
Photo courtesy of Murray Johnson

I met Murray Johnson on an afternoon in May, just before the start of this year’s Natsu honbasho in Tokyo. We walked around the busy neighbourhood of Shibuya before settling down for a coffee and a chat in a cafe out of the way of tourists. Murray is best known to our readers as one of the voices and faces of NHK World Japan’s growing coverage of sumo for English language audiences, and it is here for the next 90 minutes that we will sit and discuss the goings-on in the sport, the growth of the audience, and the challenges of presenting.

As with many of our previous interviews on the site, this will run over several posts owing to the duration of the conversation. It has been edited only for clarity and length. The first part of the conversation covers Murray’s start in sumo broadcasting and his perspectives on presenting live sumo coverage. We hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I enjoyed having it.

Tachiai: First of all, thanks for taking the time to chat with us.

Murray Johnson: Most welcome!

Were you living in Australia when NHK approached you? Is it right that you rejected them a couple times as you had never called sumo before? What was even attractive about that offer when they came, and how did they find you?

Well, I was here (in Japan). I was working in the news. I came here in 1991. Actually, I came here in ’86 and also ’88 for a couple months at a time, so when I finally started work with NHK it was basically news and radio.

(NHK) started in ’92 with the English sumo (coverage), because there was plenty of money around at the time. They had three guys who knew not much about sumo doing the show together for 15 days. So it was quite lucrative for them. Eventually, it expanded in ’94, but when they started in ’92, the director wanted changes to be made. He approached me and asked me if I would be interested. And I said, “I know nothing about it.”

I had a background in sports as well, in Australia, calling various sports. So, I then said, “well look, let me go away and learn a bit about this sport, I don’t want to come on the air as a complete moron.” So I spent about two years just watching sumo, because I hadn’t really got into it at all. I’d seen a few bouts when I came in the ’80s, and I had no interest in it at all, because I knew nothing about it. And as most people find out about sumo, if you get that little taste, especially if you go for the first time, you get hooked.

I realised, “yeah, this could be something that I could do.” The director came back to me in ’94 and said, “are you ready?” I said, “no, now I want to concentrate on learning the techniques, the history and the cultural aspects of sumo.” More about the technique, that’s what I’ve always been into. So, I did that.

Eventually I started (broadcasting sumo) in September of ’96, when we had a full crew of people. We had a guest on (the show) every day with a simultaneous interpreter, a floor director and a main director, so there were 4 or 5 people in the booth in those days. Sometimes now there’s one. I don’t know if I prefer it, but for me, as a rookie, it was a great learning experience: I could do my announcing bit, and concentrate on the bouts and not worry about having to come forth with some gems of historical information that I didn’t have anyway.  It was a good learning curve.

That’s amazing. What brought about the broadcasting changes between then and now?

Money. It was just money, nothing else but budget cuts. They realised that they couldn’t afford to run it. It is an expensive operation when you have that many people, on varying degrees of salary as well. So the budget was cut back, it was just past the bubble economy. There was still money around (at that time), but then as time progressed, there wasn’t any.

There’s always a feeling in the sumo community that something like that happens and it’s a reaction to something within sumo. As we at Tachiai have got more ingrained in the community and it continues to grow – especially in the western areas – one thing that has become really clear is how important it is to be connected in the sumo world. Culturally, for you, how big of a challenge or a change was it to make inroads into that world, to understand what’s going on behind the scenes, so that you can explain it?

Quite often the things that go on behind the scenes you don’t explain, because of the way the society works. If you’re too close to someone and you know too much about something, you can’t use it. The more I got involved that way, the less it became a plus on the air – no advantage whatsoever.

In the early days, I used to go to keiko prior to a basho, 3 or 4 times a week for 3 weeks before the tournament started. Especially back then, there were few foreigners going to keiko. Invariably, we went with the director anyway. They wanted to know, “who are you, what are you doing here?” You sit down, shut up and watch. You’re there for three hours, in the lotus position, very uncomfortable. That was the learning curve: “shut up and watch.” That’s all I did, for probably ten years. Then you get to talk a bit with the guys outside. And invariably, I found that pretty useless! Because they’re not actually going to say how their injury is.

A lot of guys have “white light fever:” in practise they’re terrible, and when it gets to the actual basho they turn it on. These days, maybe Mitakeumi is the best example of that. Back in those days it was Takamisakari who was always useless in practise.

I got to know quite a few of the rikishi personally, and went out to regular dinners with a few of them back in the day. Now, I don’t do that at all now. The last five years, I went to keiko probably twice a year. Most of the rikishi don’t know who I am, and I like it that way. I like to be objective.

John Gunning knows a lot of them, and he can’t use (those stories) either! He will come out openly and say “there’s certain things in sumo I can’t tell you, because A) it won’t be good for the sport and B) it’s just ‘he said he said.'”

Yaocho is a classic example. (People say), “I know that was a fix.” Well, you don’t know! You can assume it was. Even some classic matches that were and everyone knew they were, you have to prove. And even in all these days gone by, until they catch someone saying or texting that it did happen – say, betting on sumo – until they catch them in the act, it’s just an opinion. 

I think an informed opinion in sumo, or any sport for that matter, is important. What I try to do now, is if I have an opinion on something, it’s based on what I know, and not what I think. Anyone can go online and read people’s opinions, and a lot of it is not informed at all. Now, I don’t mind that! I think it’s good for the sport. But sometimes you look at something and you go, “where did that come from?! It came out of left field.” You know it’s totally wrong, but there’s no point jumping in, getting online with people and having a bit of a stoush with them over an “I know more than you” attitude, because I don’t want to come across as arrogant. I think I’ve learnt enough to know when to shut up and when not to.

Let’s go off on a tangent about the people that have come into the sport online, opinions, and so on and so forth: How have you seen a transformation in the English language audience since you arrived? Are there certain milestones or points where the audiences for your sumo work increased, and you’ve thought, “wow, we’ve got something here?” Obviously if we’re talking the Harumafuji scandal, or Kisenosato – there are those milestones, but you’ve been in sumo a lot longer.

I think prior to that, it’s (the emergence of) people like the Sumo Database. I had been doing sumo for five years and didn’t even know it existed. Someone said to me, “your facts are not right,”  and I’d go to the Sumo Forum and check that out. I’d find people slagging me for things that I’d said that they thought were wrong, and I probably was.

I was using NHK’s basic data that I would go through, read the Japanese, translate it with my wife into English, and use all that on the air. Then, I found out about the Database. I don’t use that all the time, because NHK has its own resources and I tend to use those more, but the database is a great cross reference.

NHK is well aware of the people (who post videos). I keep out of that. I think it’s kind of wrong, because people are getting it for free. If people are charging for it, I’d be surprised if they aren’t trying to get it for free. But (the NSK/NHK) need to look at the overall global situation and perhaps make it affordable for everybody. You could get 10 years of the NFL for what the Sumo Kyokai is trying to charge for a basho!

The Kyokai probably doesn’t really want the foreign involvement. NHK does, because it’s more of a global [entity]. But NHK is a non-profit organisation, it’s a quasi-government operation. They’re trying to pay for their costs. I’m probably digressing here, but what they do is, they come on board with the sumo highlight show, and now three days of live sumo for the tournament. No doubt you probably want to know whether that’s going to expand. I would say in the short term, no.

There’s not the time frame for it, to show Juryo plus the top division for 4 hours a day, while they’re running the very expensive shows that they’ve gone out and mass produced: Cultural programs, which have a huge appeal. I don’t see in the short term, it being expanded by NHK. But, I know that my immediate bosses in global media who run the sumo highlights program are more attuned to try and achieve that.

I’ve had conversations with them about what I think they should do. They do allow our input – not just mine – and suggestions about how we should improve things to make sure that the overseas audiences are coming. As you know, there are more people coming to Japan to go to the sumo, because they know what a buzz it is. So… I don’t think the foreign audience is a priority, but they’re certainly welcoming the fact that more people are coming on board.

It’s working with (NHK’s) Facebook page, I think. I try to answer people on Facebook. If people pose a question and no one answers, I’ll jump in. People go, “oh wow, the guy on air does this?” Which is a little unusual.

Some people try and become my permanent friend on Facebook, and I have to deny all that. I’ve realised I don’t really want to know about their dog and cat, but I’m interested to talk sumo!

One interesting thing that I’ve always thought about, coming from my own background in music and entertainment: there was a disruption that happened in those areas in terms of rights and ownership over however many years. It seems that sumo is getting to a point with a greater international audience, that – to your point about what NHK charges for the Premium service – there is money to be made, but the remit is Japan, and that’s the audience that they obviously have to serve first.

I don’t know if you are aware, but in the early days, or at least up until about seven years ago, we were on Broadcast Satellite 1 or 2, but then we switched to GTV, so our audience went from this to this [raises hands to demonstrate huge growth].

There are millions of Japanese people who watch the sumo in English! They want to improve their English, and they want to hear English. Or, maybe they’ve lived overseas and they want to hear it. All of a sudden our audience (had) a massive jump. But we didn’t change our delivery, we didn’t change our broadcast. We just knew that they were there.

We’ve seen such a change in the last few years at NHK as you’ve mentioned, with the highlights show, the addition of Grand Sumo Live, the Preview show and now the activity on social media that you referenced. What’s the next thing that you’d like to see happen to better serve the English language community?

I would like to see a full two hours (live broadcast), not just 40 minutes, but that is not possible at the moment because of the news on NHK World. They do start earlier on Senshuraku, but the sumo finishes earlier! 

I know a lot of people want to see the prize giving ceremony, they want to see a macaron presented on the dohyo. Unfortunately, that is governed by NHK Japan, [Grand Sumo Live] is an extension of that program with our own delivery. We’re not a carbon copy of the Japanese in terms of what we say – certainly not anymore. We probably were a little bit back in the day, because they were a little more strict about what we could say and announcers were not freely allowed to express their opinion. They would just call it as it is and let the guest do that.

Now, because we have less guests, when I’m on my own, I’m basically asking myself a question: “What do you think Murray?” I can express my opinion. Some of the old guard guests don’t like that, because it’s very hard to differentiate. You’ve got to realise when you’re on the air and you’re with another person who’s been doing it for 20 years. All of the sudden (if) I say “well no, I don’t think that’s true, because this happened” – that was not the way in the old day. But now, with me, it certainly is. So I don’t tend to work with too many people anymore!

I think it’s probably better for the listener to get that honest assessment of, “here’s what’s going on, here’s what I think.”

Yeah, but getting back to what I said earlier, it should be based on fact, or based on information that you have. The opinion is built on knowledge that you have prior to the tournament or that you’ve built up – technique wise or how the guy fights. Not just: “aw, that was sloppy sumo!” Anyone can say that. That’s how it’s changed.

Getting back to your question in relation to how I’d like to see it expand, now, that’s what I see happening in the short term – but to what degree, I have no say in that. (NHK) are going to cater for an audience that wants more, they’re going to give it to them. And they’ve got a bit of power. Because last year, it was the most watched program at NHK World.

The highlights show? 

All of it. By a street. So the guys that run the show go: “OK, we had better take notice of this.” They’re expanding the amount of people that work in the program. I’m not going to tell you how much it is to make the Preview show, but it’s a 30 minute show in Edo Noren restaurant near the Kokugikan – it costs a fortune! I think it’s to do with the crew, it’s certainly not the on air crew! Those sort of things have expanded for the newbie to sumo. I don’t go on the air thinking just about newbies, but it’s a waste of time trying to talk (only) to the veteran (fans) because A) most of them have already formed their opinions and B) most of them watch the Japanese show anyway, and think they’re going to get more information out of the Japanese show than watching in English. 

I’ve often seen people write, “I don’t watch the English show at all. It’s crap.” Or, “I don’t learn anything.” In a lot of cases though on the Japanese show, the guest or oyakata who’s on is dead wood. And we have had those sort of people on the air as well! I’m not going to say which ones I think they are – they’ll never talk to me again!

There are certain situations where I think we have equal or a lot better product on certain days. As a viewer, you can choose what you watch if you live in Japan. And if you take the NHK Premium TV package, which is not just sumo, it’s the whole cultural experience of NHK, you get that. Some of the people who started watching sumo watching us (on the English feed) bought that, when Hawaii was the home of sumo, because of Akebono and Musashimaru and Konishiki and all those guys. When they were around, a lot of people had the Premium package in Hawaii, but not anymore, because there are no Hawaiians.

Come back to Tachiai for the next parts of our conversation with Murray over the coming days and weeks! [edit: click here to continue reading Part 2]

Tachiai Interviews Kintamayama, Part 5: “You can’t bleep it out, that’s my name!”

Josh K Interview, Kotoshogiku (琴奨菊) , , ,

 

Kintamayama / Moti Dichne Live in Concert
After completing our setlist of questions, Kintamayama prepares to play Tachiai off the stage. Photo courtesy of Moti Dichne.

Welcome to the fifth and final part of Tachiai’s conversation with Moti Dichne, aka Kintamayama. Moti is well known in the online sumo community for his tireless coverage of all things sumo through his newsletter, his presence on SumoForum, and of course, his exhaustive YouTube channel.

A big thanks is due to Moti for taking the time to chat with us. We’re pleased to have been able to bring this conversation to our readers, and are thrilled that it has not only been so well received, but created more conversations around sumo – especially including some of the more controversial aspects of our chat!

Click here for Part 1, here for Part 2, here for Part 3, and here for part 4 of our conversation. The interview took place during this year’s Natsu basho, and has been edited only for clarity and length. This segment touches on Moti’s shikona, his channel, and perhaps the most controversial move in sumo.

Tachiai: Let’s talk about Kintamayama (金玉山), The Mountain of Testicles.

Moti Dichne (Kintamayama): Everyone had funny names to stand out. That’s the whole point of playing the game.

When I entered, and started following sumo online, I made a list of names, and this just came. It just sounds good, the meaning doesn’t matter 90% of the time. Most people don’t understand it. It sounds cool.

The funniest thing is, Japanese TV interviewed me. It’s on YouTube. During the show, you’re not allowed to say these [kinds of] things. But if that’s my name… that’s my name!

The announcer was having such a great time saying it, and every time he said it, the crowd burst into laughter! “Kintamayama” “Waahhh!!!”

He said it about ten times in two minutes, just so he could say it. Let’s say a Japanese guy would play someone called “C—face.” Can you imagine the announcer? “And this is C—face.” What can I say? You can’t bleep it out, that’s the name!

But I never thought it would become this [big]. I thought, “Kintamayama’s a joke!” Some of the Japanese sumo games would not accept my entry because of my shikona. I said, “that’s a reason to stick with it!”

Some guy wrote me and said, “When you’ve retired, can I get that toshiyori, that second generation name?” I said, “No problem, you take the name when I retire.”

For foreign fans, it just sounds like another name. I thought of “ji-shin,” earthquake. But jishin? that’s nothing. And people die in earthquakes. Testicles, no problem. Konishiki went crazy! He loved saying it. He’d say, “This is my friend, Kintamayama!”

John Gunning told me, “The Kyokai knows your name, they know!”

I have no idea why [the Kyokai] never shut me down, to tell you the truth. I never got any warnings, until the last basho, and I got a warning from Abema. I’ve never used Abema! I can’t watch Abema, I’m not going to use VPN. I understand that because [the channel is] a digest, it falls under the category of fair use.

The Kyokai are very strict, but MLB and NBA are much more strict. There are many, many [sports] digest channels that have not been touched, and I use those. When I don’t have the time or inclination to watch the whole game, I just watch the highlights. But I have no idea why they’ve never touched me. 

Is it because no one else is doing it, even their rights holders?

I have no idea, I’m not going to ask anyone either, to wake up the dead dogs as they say. They know. Just look at the numbers, 12 million views, 26,000 subscribers, that’s a lot for sumo, any way you look at it. It’s a different thing to Jason, he’s incredible, [the way he] does the top bouts and films it. It’s a fantastic philosophy. He’s brought in thousands of fans and it’s very approachable, he’s a cool guy. 

I think for a lot of people, it’s appealing when you don’t know anyone else who’s into sumo to discover someone like Jason on YouTube, and that concept that it’s like watching it with a buddy. You can kind of go “oh, interesting, I don’t have another person who I can talk to about this.”

And it’s not that many bouts, so it shows the top guys.

The cool thing about that is there’s an ecosystem. We’re in this moment where people, specifically English speakers, can’t get enough information. To your earlier point, there are a lot of people from the English speaking world who perhaps don’t understand the Japanese way of thinking, and how that way of thinking informs sumo culture. I think the more information that’s available to those people, the more rich it makes the community. We see comments all the time, such as “why doesn’t this rikishi take a bunch of bashos off” or “why don’t they do this or that,” and you need that background information.

We have to be patient. I get a lot of comments on my videos and I try to answer every one that has a question, and especially every comment that says something that I find totally wrong. And usually, 99% [of people] say “thank you for the information.”

But if it’s, “Why is it like this?” “Why are there no weight classes,” and things like that, that’s like asking why players in baseball wear caps. What kind of question is that?! Let’s say I asked you that kind of question, what would your answer be?

About caps?

Yeah, let’s say you have a baseball site, and I say “why are your players wearing these ridiculous caps?”

That’s how it is, it’s part of the game.

Yes! Exactly! You don’t come into a baseball forum and ask “hey, why are bunts allowed? It seems unfair!” 

Now they have statistics that prove bunts are actually not good.

Bunts are like a henka. Why is henka allowed? Okay: that is always the biggest question. But it always deteriorates and ends with the word “nazi.” When you get to that part, where it’s “you fucking nazi!” … that’s when the discussion is over. The henka lights up everything.

It’s controversial. Whenever you see a henka, at least on the English feed, the commentators will always say “look, it’s a legal move.”

Yeah, “I don’t like it but it’s a legal move.” The Japanese commentators don’t like it.

I think it’s the equivalent in baseball of a curveball.

I think it’s the equivalent in baseball of an intentional walk. And now, from last season, you don’t have to throw the ball for an intentional walk, you just say it.  

The crowd feels cheated. An intentional walk is usually against the biggest hitter, and the crowd says “shit, I paid however many dollars, I want to see him play, not walk!” 

So Terunofuji henkas Kotoshogiku and ends his Ozeki career. People said an Ozeki shouldn’t do that – and then Terunofuji himself had to later attempt to get back to Ozeki. What do we think about that?

It’s crap! At that time, in a big sumo newspaper, I was on the “for henka” side and another guy was against it. Each one of us wrote a gigantic article. I said it doesn’t matter if you’re a Yokozuna or an Ozeki, as long as it’s legal. I don’t like kachiage, but for it to be frowned upon!? It’s part of sumo, it’s not a rule. 

What about the harite?

The harite also. You know, Hakuho, the last few years, without the harite, had a problem. He came back a bit with it [in Osaka], and got the yusho! I don’t care! I love it!! I think the slap and grab is nice.

I think it adds character.

It adds everything – it’s not boring. But, there were guys that used to do glorious henkas, jumping in the air. That’s part of keeping people guessing.

Look at your opponent, don’t look at the floor like Kotoshogiku, who was the number one henka-ee, you know? You’re not animals, just see what you’re opponent’s doing.

There are people who can’t stand it, because they think it’s cheating. You can’t convince everyone about the henka. 

Thanks for taking the time to chat with us, we appreciate it!

Thank you for asking me!

Find out more from Kintamayama and subscribe to his mailing list at dichne.com. And finally, thanks again to Moti for chatting with Tachiai.

Tachiai Interviews Kintamayama, Part 4: “If Hakuho goes, we have no responsible adult.”

Josh K Aminishiki (安美錦), Gōeidō (豪栄道), Hakuho (白鵬), Kotoshogiku (琴奨菊), Kotoyuki, Mitakeumi(御嶽海), Takakeishō (貴景勝), Toyonoshima, Ōnoshō (阿武咲) , ,
Moti Dichne (Kintamayama) and Takanohana
Kintamayama with Takanohana outside of Futagoyama-beya. Photo courtesy of Moti Dichne.

Welcome to Part 4 of Tachiai’s conversation with Moti Dichne, aka Kintamayama. Moti is well known in the online sumo community for his tireless coverage of all things sumo through his newsletter, his presence on SumoForum, and of course, his exhaustive YouTube channel.

Click here for Part 1, here for Part 2, and here for Part 3 of our conversation, if you are catching up. The interview took place during this year’s Natsu basho, and as such predates some current sumo events (such as the retirement of Aminishiki) and has been edited only for clarity and length. This segment touches on the state of some current rikishi and the ongoing transition in the sport.

Tachiai: A lot of people are very interested in debating Takakeisho’s ceiling. What are your thoughts on Takakeisho? What can he be? He’s got one trick, but it’s a weird trick.

Moti Dichne (Kintamayama): Listen, Chiyotaikai was not much better. He had the windmill thing, and it worked for him for 60 bashos! In the meantime, Takakeisho is looking really good, you can’t argue with that. [edited to add: this interview took place before Takakeisho’s injury caused him to at least temporarily lose his ozeki status]

I personally am a belt person, but [yotsu-zumo rikishi] are becoming like dinosaurs. Look at Makuuchi… out of 42, maybe 32 are slappers! You’ve got Tochinoshin, and Hakuho and maybe 3 more [who are yotsu-zumo rikishi]. But Asanoyama was down where all his opponents are slappers and he’s had a difficult time getting the belt.

I [now] think Takakeisho is the real deal for sure, and I didn’t think so. I was happy they didn’t promote him when they didn’t promote him [the first time he met the informal qualification]. I said, “let’s wait a minute and see how he does mentally.”

Kisenosato would be devastated [in that situation], and it would take him 3 bashos to get over it. Takakeisho got over it very quickly. He’s a cool cucumber. He has a mission, and everyone forgets that he’s a young guy.

Personally, Onosho was the guy that I was rooting for. He started off well, but I hope that his whole setback lately comes from an injury and not from that being how good he is. I’m looking for a reason, because he came up and was killing everybody. Even Takakeisho. Even Hakuho [couldn’t deal with him].

That’s an interesting point. One thing that we’ve been talking about the last several years is that sumo is in a transitionary phase.

Oh, yeah.

But I think that when people hear that, what they expect to see is the Kisenosatos of the world retire – and he did, as did Harumafuji, but Harumafuji retired in a freak situation. It wasn’t like, “we’re in a transitionary period, and all the top guys are going,” what we’re actually seeing is the Takekazes of the world and the guys who are the long serving veterans who are starting to work their way out, but I think it’s happening slower than people really expect. Is it because these veterans of that last period… Takekaze, Yoshikaze, Kotoshogiku, Aminishiki – are they that good that they’re able to hang around or is it because this new generation – Onosho for example – hasn’t been good enough to be able to push on?

A little of both. It’s very difficult to know. There’s one thing that foreign fans will never understand: It’s not yaocho when the young guys have respect. When they were five years old, they used to watch [the older guys] on TV. That has to factor in somewhere, on the dohyo, that “I don’t want to hurt the old guy. I don’t want to be the one who caused the old guy to retire.”

I’m not saying that they’re giving them the wins, but I think they are being extra careful. Nobody will tell you that, but I am pretty sure. And I can tell by the bouts, I can see, the younger the guys are more reluctant to go all-out against Aminishiki, against Toyonoshima. That’s my feeling. Toyonoshima a bit less because when you look at him, you don’t see him as that old. Aminishiki on the other hand, you see an old guy. [He’s] like an oyakata having fun.

The Japanese are very rooted in kohai and sempai. It has power when you were 10 years old and you adored [a rikishi], and suddenly you’re fighting him and you’re saying somewhere, “I don’t want to kill this guy, I don’t want to hurt him.”

There’s a totally different thing happening right now. I think for the first time, since I don’t know when… if Hakuho goes, we have no responsible adult. There’s no name. The minute Hakuho goes, we’re doomed. Kakuryu and Mitakeumi?

Always there’s a void. Takanohana came after Chiyonofuji. The Americans came. There were never 4… 5… 7… 8… 10 bashos like that, and if Hakuho goes…

Dominance is good and bad but it’s good for knowing there’s a responsible adult.

It’s also a society that’s dominated by the concept of eras. We’re talking right now at a time when the change to the Reiwa era has just happened. It’s an appropriate time for this discussion. You can bank on Hakuho, even if he’s kyujo 2 times a year, to get up to 50 to 60 wins a year. I think an issue if he leaves is that usually in that vacuum, someone will go, “ok, I’m going to take those 60 wins.” But right now, we’re seeing six guys taking ten of those wins apiece over the course of the year.

That’s what I’m saying! It’s not going to happen. In the NBA, you have your LeBrons and your Michael Jordans. In baseball you have [dominant] guys. Here, suddenly, there’s nobody. Because Kakuryu does anything but show leadership, you don’t know what’s going to happen with him. He has no charisma. 

Do you think the next Hakuho is in the sport now?

I don’t think there’s going to be a “next Hakuho” for quite a while. I’m not sure about Naya either. I have no idea. None from whoever’s in Makuuchi today. Maybe Takakeisho, but I doubt it if he’s going to be one dimensional. Somewhere along the line, but I don’t see anyone right now. I thought Goeido at some point, but he’s getting old. I think he’s going to win another yusho. I have a feeling that this is his basho [Natsu 2019], but we’ll see.

As we speak, Goeido is on his longest run of staying out of kadoban that he’s ever been on in his entire Ozeki career. [edited to add: he’s since gone kadoban again]

See, this is what we’re talking about: an Ozeki who’s 30 years old and been kadoban every 2-3 [basho]. Guys like Hakuho breeze through Ozeki, [not] stuck in Ozeki for 30 bashos. They just walked over Ozeki, except for Musashimaru, who stayed on for a long time.

I made a poll, a hundred years ago on the mailing list: “Who thinks Musashimaru will become Yokozuna?” Out of about 100 responses, three people. Because there was no way. He seemed to be a happy go lucky guy, content with a 9-6. 10-5.

We all were laughing, saying “he’s going to have to learn the dohyo-iri, just for that he won’t be come Yokozuna!” And then suddenly out of nowhere, he made it in. Everyone was healthy, it wasn’t like it was something that he picked up off the floor. And he was a great Yokozuna.

And Musashimaru was in an era where it was difficult to do that, with Takanohana still being in the sport. Whoever does it next may have a free run at it. 

That’s what we’re saying, exactly! It’s going to be easy! That’s why I have a feeling that even though he’s one dimensional, maybe Takakeisho will be able to do it. He just needs two [consecutive] yushos! And in this atmosphere at this moment, who knows. 

It could happen. I think the biggest issue with the current crop is consistency.

Listen, not only could it happen, it has to happen, because there’s going to be a void. 

There was the period in the early 90s before Akebono, where there was nobody for about a year. There were 4 Yokozuna, and then Asahifuji and Hokutoumi retired, having mostly been kyujo just before they retired. I think we may see that again, where there were 4, and then none. 

I missed Chiyonofuji and all of that era! The internet brought me back to sumo. Between ’67 and ’90, that’s 23 years I was totally out of sumo. There was no other way [to see sumo]. I had to go back and study everything and see what happened, for my own information and my own curiosity. 

It’s a weird parallel because you had this period where you had Onokuni, Hokutoumi…

Onokuni was a lousy Yokozuna also! He should keep on making cakes. He’s a baker!

They all kind of flattered to deceive a little bit, and it’s kind of like the current period, where you had Kisenosato with two yusho, injuries, and he’s out… and maybe the end of Hakuho’s career is similar to the end of Chiyonofuji’s career. Maybe there will be a year break with no Yokozuna because nobody can win two in a row, or the equivalent?

I think it’s going to be interesting. Because the fans now, for the first time, are coming in – not for the Yokozuna. I don’t remember that happening since I got interested in sumo.

It was always the Yokozuna, Asashoryu, these guys [who attracted fans]. Any time they were injured, the attendance went down. In those days, the basho wasn’t sold out in advance.

You look around the arena and see what things people hold up and who they are cheering for, and while you do get a lot of fans for Ozeki Tochinoshin now, a lot of people love Mitakeumi, Endo, Enho…

They’re Japanese! Endo, always! Of course it also depends which tournament it is, the local people always [get support]. Mitakeumi is very well liked, and I don’t understand why! Maybe he’s a nice guy. But his sumo…

He has consistency problems.

And he has training problems, which is worse. He trains [poorly], then he loses and everyone is on his case. He’s one of those guys that he comes on during the basho. 

He’s kind of the opposite of Goeido, who trains very hard, but then falters during the basho.

Yeah, exactly. The oyakata are already making jokes about Mitakeumi, that he loses all the time in training, and they’re saying he’s not going all out and that’s why he’ll never amount to anything. That used to be the case with Robocop (Takamisakari). He would never win a single bout in keiko! It was like he was scared. During the basho he had no choice, but in training he used to be scared! 

He was a character that was great for the sport.

Oh, for sure! A character you need. The way they cut Kotoyuki down… what the hell do you care?! Now, Kotoyuki has this new thing going, his helicopter move [before the tachiai]. Nobody cares. Nobody notices, nobody gives a shit, nobody laughs or claps. In his prime, everybody was waiting just for that! Now, you have the Takayasu “Gorilla.” The crowd goes crazy [for that].

I think Kotoshogiku needs to bring his back bend move back. He stopped when he fell out of san’yaku. Do you think if he goes back to san’yaku he’ll bring it back? 

He stopped his back bend and I didn’t even notice! I read somewhere that someone told him it’s not good for his back. Which sounds like total nonsense. Maybe it’s a san’yaku thing, like the change of names where when they drop out of san’yaku and go back to their real name.

Maybe he feels he’s not a top level guy anymore so he hasn’t earned the right to make a big show?

K: Well, knowing Kotoshogiku, that’s very possible.

The rumour on the street is that he wants to renew his rivalry with Toyonoshima. Do you think that’s ever going to happen?

Toyonoshima looks good. He looks like he has a lot of years in him, in contract to Aminishiki who doesn’t [edited to add: and has since retired]. But Aminishiki has been looking that way for the last five years… so what do I know! I’m telling you the factor is the guys are afraid to injure him and they’re not going all out.

Find out more from Kintamayama and subscribe to his mailing list at dichne.com, and keep an eye out for the final part of our conversation, which will run soon on Tachiai.

Tachiai Interviews Kintamayama, Part 3: “Everyone was scared to enter the dohyo!”

Josh K Abi (阿炎), Hakuho (白鵬), Interview, Takanohana , , ,
Kintamayama (Moti Dichne) with Musashimaru and Konishiki
Kintamayama, pictured overseeing keiko at Musashigawa-beya with the former Musashimaru (Musashigawa-oyakata) and Konishiki. Photo courtesy of Moti Dichne.

Welcome to Part 3 of Tachiai’s conversation with Moti Dichne, aka Kintamayama. Moti is well known in the online sumo community for his tireless coverage of all things sumo through his newsletter, his presence on SumoForum, and of course, his exhaustive YouTube channel.

Click here for Part 1 and click here for Part 2 of our conversation, if you are catching up. The third part of our series incorporates some of Moti’s stories from keiko, thoughts on future stars, and fun with sumo. The interview took place during this year’s Natsu basho and has been edited for clarity and length [edited to add: this post was edited further on August 17 due to a complaint regarding some of the video content]. This segment features some strong opinions, which are of course the subject’s own.

Tachiai: Obviously you use your Japanese language skills to bring us a lot of information. And particularly, you have got some really interesting scoops from the interview room…

Moti Dichne: laughs

Do you have any of those videos coming up? I think there are some people who want to know who else came to Ichinojo’s bar mitzvah….

I always watch all the interviews, and I know which interview can go like that. Most of the interviews lately are very straightforward. I have to be in the zone, you know? It doesn’t happen very easily! I’ll tell you something. I estimate 70% of people think those videos are real. I’ve been having complaints, like “why did Ichinojo jump the line in the supermarket?!”

 

It’s all music, it’s all the sound. There are a lot of words that sound a bit like English. I enjoy it a lot. When people enjoy it, that’s great. I haven’t done it in a long time, I don’t know why.

You seem to have your favourites that you’ll go after. 

 

 

In the old times, they used to show a close-up of the monoii because [the video] was the Kyokai’s feed, not NHK. My best work is the rapport between the shimpan. One time, one of the shimpan, Chiyotaikai’s slipper fell off, and so I have Chiyonofuji saying “see? I told you not to buy cheap shoes! Where did you buy these shoes anyway!?” It looks like he’s saying it! And Chiyotaikai says, “What do you want? it was a sale!”

I can’t do that anymore because I can’t see [the monoii], it’s very far on the NHK feed, and I don’t know what they’re saying. Listen, that humour is part of me. I can’t help it. Sometimes, I have “font day.” I have all kinds of nonsense that annoys people. I don’t give a shit. I love it! It makes it more entertaining.

 

 

 

You have to find the joy in it, right?

Humour is always arguable, but at least I make it my thing. Maybe not all the information is there, but it’s the personal touch. People like to feel part of the running gags. They say, “oh yeah, the guy without the neck!” And people correct me, they go: “there was a tsuppari against the guy without a neck and you didn’t say anything!”

“OK, I’ll file that away for next time.”

The problem is at my age I don’t remember what I filed!

We both obviously love Ikioi, and I discovered you like Abi as well. Is it the guys that have the high energy now, that come to the top division, who you find entertaining?

I don’t know about other people, but I have seen a lot of behind the scenes videos. Abi looks like the perfect prankster. He’s always pranking. That’s it! I don’t care about anything else. It’s not the norm. I like the pranksters!

They’re good characters.

Good characters! And they’re different. Abi looks serious when he’s on the dohyo, but that’s life. He looks like a really light hearted, nice guy. The sumo’s very, very shallow, that [two hand attack] is all he does.

The funny thing is, my daughter called me Abi way before he came up. Because abba in Hebrew is dad. And “Abi” is like “daddy.” Suddenly, this guy called Abi comes up! And he came up with Abiko, so there were two Abis: Abi and Abiko, who’s now Tsurugisho. But that’s why I like Abi, that’s why I like Ikioi. You can tell that it’s more than sumo to them.

It’s true, because I think it can also be a really hard, sometimes joyless, lifestyle.

Exactly! Exactly to the point. These guys can find their five minutes of joy. We know the life. We’re not passing fans, we know what things they go through. I’ve been to keiko.

I saw Asashoryu in 2000. I went to Wakamatsu-beya, and I have never ever seen such a thing, not before and not after. He was head-butting everyone around. Everyone was scared to enter the dohyo! And the Makuuchi guys were whistling and looking around [trying not to be noticed]. They didn’t dare get in! So I asked the oyakata, “please, allow me to take a picture with him.” He says “oh… Makushita.” You know, Makushita, they’re trash. And I said, “But please, I came all the way from Israel, please let me take a picture.”

The oyakata said, “Why?” I said, “Because he’s the next yokozuna.”

And I wrote that on the mailing list, as proof. I said, “I just saw a guy, he was in Makushita, he is the next Yokozuna.” I’ve never seen anything like that. And I have the picture! I spoke with him, and he was very intelligent. He knew everything about Israel and Palestine, and he asked questions. The oyakata allowed me to speak, otherwise I couldn’t. [The Makushita guys] to them, they are nothing, you cannot talk to them.

The funny thing is if you go now to keiko, you might be more likely to end up taking a photo with the guys near the bottom end of the banzuke!

I got Takanohana, I got Wakanohana, I got everybody. I just walked up, it’s the Israeli cheekiness. People say “no, don’t go…” What’s going to happen? They might say, “No, go away.”

During that era, I went to Kokugikan, and I was with Doreen Simmons, who just died, and she knew everybody. I totally respected that she knew everyone. She got me in everywhere – except Futagoyama, which was out in Chiba somewhere. A friend took me there. That was an incredible experience, to see Takanohana and Wakanohana training. No-nonsense training. It’s not like, “I’m the Yokozuna, and I’m going to watch.”

[When] Takanohana came into the room, I swear to God there was an electric shock in the whole room. I felt it, I was thrown back! It was the presence, and he is gigantic. You never know this! I always thought Terao was a small guy. Terao is tall! I met him also.

I got Takanohana in his prime. I walked up right after the keiko and said, “can I take a picture with you?” He said, “you stay here, I’m going to do an interview and then I’m coming back and we’re taking pictures.” There was a huge staff of TV [people]. And he said, “don’t you want to shake my hand?” Takanohana! I was at Futagoyama-beya when it was Takanohana, Wakanohana, and all these [top division] guys. I was sitting there, and it was really cool.

You obviously identified Asashoryu in that moment. Who now, if you’re looking outside the two divisions, are you super excited about?

It’s not such a stretch. Of course, Hoshoryu and Naya. I had a lot of faith in Shoji at Musashigawa-beya. But, something happened along the way. I don’t know if he’s stuck. I’ll see him tomorrow, I’ll talk to him and see what happened. 

He hit the wall really badly, 5 or 6 basho stuck in the same place. He was coming up really, really [well], and he was looking good, I was watching his bouts and I spotted something in him.

Other than that, there’s a guy now coming in, who started from Sandanme who’s supposed to be really, really [good], Shiraishi. Listen, the last two guys who started from Sandanme to come up [to the top division] were Yutakayama and Asanoyama. I think Asanoyama, by the way, is going to have a fantastic basho this basho. (edited to add: this was said by Kintamayama at the very start of the tournament before Asanoyama won his fairly unprecedented, debut yusho)

Yeah? He’s looked pretty good so far.

I have a feeling that he was injured for the last few bashos. He looks much better now, and Yutakayama will be back up for sure. It’s gotta be an injury.

What do you think about Hakuho as a recruiter? He brought along the two small guys – Enho and Ishiura – and they got up to the top division, and now he’s got this enormous guy, Toma.

There’s no question about it, the results speak for themselves. There’s nothing you can argue about. It’s not semantics. We’re not guessing. He’s got two midgets in the first division! Not in Juryo, not in Makushita… in the first division! We’ll have to see how Enho does, because Ishiura was lucky and should have been demoted. It will be interesting to see if Enho can make it – I personally don’t believe he’ll make it. It’s like Takanoyama… I think he’s too small. But, who knows?

That’s the debate: will he be Takanoyama or will he be Mainoumi?

He could have one or two good basho, but the real test will be the third [Makuuchi] basho. When the guys catch on to you and they know what you’re not supposed to do, that’s it.

It also happened with Ishiura.

Yeah, yeah. But still, he’s still around! 

He’s physically pretty decent. With Enho, when you shut down his mobility, you shut him down.

And he’s had an injury which everyone knows about, it’s not a secret. With his shoulder, I think in [the old days] he would have been kyujo.

Listen, there was the kosho system. [That] was really cool, until the Ozeki were very weak. The truth is it’s all Musoyama’s fault, today’s Fujishima-oyakata. He was the one misusing [the system] in a very, very obvious way. Don’t let anyone else tell you anything else because it’s bullshit. He was going 0-3 and suddenly making up an injury and getting out.

They’re going to lose prime wrestlers [because of] this shit! Look at Ura. He also came back too early! 2 seconds later he got injured again.

And also the jungyo. There used to be 7 or 8 jungyo [dates per tour], now they have 25 or 26. There’s no way anyone can recuperate – no way!

The exciting new stars don’t only put butts in seats, but they also sell so much merch. 

[The Association] is killing the chicken that lays the golden egg. Why!? They have got to find a way [to deal with injuries]. I’m pretty sure someone has come up with a way that’s not kosho, something in the middle. It’s crazy. Maybe when [rikishi] go kyujo, don’t drop them [all the way] back, drop them a little less. Don’t treat it as a 0-15, because that’s not fair, it’s an injury. Treat it as a 5-10, 4-11. It’s not that complicated to do that. It’s not rewriting the rules. There are no rules that say it has to be a 0-15. That’s not written anywhere.

Find out more from Kintamayama and subscribe to his mailing list at dichne.com, and keep an eye out for the next parts of our conversation, which will run soon on Tachiai.

[This post has been edited to reflect Kintamayama’s own updates to his comments regarding his meeting with Asashoryu, correcting the year and stable.]